Check out St. Apollonia in her underwear

[mmcnealy]

Its her underdress actually, but it appears to have darts. Its a very interesting picture from a costuming perspective.

http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/d/durer/2/11/6/08sapoll.html

Comments

[moizissimo.livejournal.com]

I seem to remember a huge discussion about that on a costuming list a while back (say 6 mos) but I don't remember which one. I also don't remember what all people thought it was :)

It's interesting how it gets bulkier where the "darts" are. Usually under the breasts, the rib cage doesn't get dramaticaly bigger, and hers does, or there's some sort of padding there or something else I haven't thought of yet :)

[gailsedotes.livejournal.com]

look at the close up - paying particular attention to the under arm seem area of the shift. There's a shift to which the sleeves are attached and the shift just culrs over the top. Right where that tear is it makes it look like those sleves are sewn onto the dress, but if you go a smidge to the right, there is a line defining the dress from the shift that goes in line with it being 'something' over the chemise...

and it definately wrinkles under the breast horisontally... or is in two parts or layers. there is one matching seamline under the are for both peices... And those verticle lines might be darts or boning chanels? I think it is three layers
1. barely visible chemise
2. some sort of sft breast band
3.peiced undergown or corset?

[misscrabtree.livejournal.com]

I'm studying Northern Renaissance this semester. What painting are you looking for, maybe I can help or ask my Professor Wednesday?

Elizabeth

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

Its this one. http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/d/durer/2/11/6/08sapoll.html


If you click on the picture it will take you to the detail screen, where you can see the suspicious vertical lines under the bust points.

;)

[misscrabtree.livejournal.com]

Ok, I printed it and will show it to her Wednesday...any specific question? Prof. Colin is from Hamberg Germany so she really knows her stuff. BTW, here is a good link ... we use it for research and you can get interlibrary loans. http://catnyp.nypl.org

Elizabeth

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

My main question is weither or not she thinks the costume in the picture is accurate or not.

Its supposed to be of St. Apollonia, but I don't see any of the saints typical items that would concretely identify it as being her. So it could be a study of an acutal person, wearing actual clothes from this time period.

If that's true, things start to get interesting.

[misscrabtree.livejournal.com]

Got it...I will show it to her, I know she will be thrilled to answer your question.

Darts? Where?

[guyelfkin.livejournal.com]

I don't see anythign in that picture I'd interpret as darts.

You seem to be referring to the vertical lines under the bust - what makes you think they're darts? They could just as easily be seams that disappear under the neck-band/guard thingy.

Re: Darts? Where?

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

They could be seams, but why would the seam allowence be on the outside?

I personally am not seeing the neck-band or guard, I think that horzontal line is the underbust crease. You'll notice that the seam lines for the shoulder straps to the sleeves is much lighter than the dark line of what I think is another crease.

Re: Darts? Where?

[guyelfkin.livejournal.com]

Fair enough, different ways of looking at the same thing, but it looks like a neckband/guard to me.

Since it's not a full portrait - looks more like a prelimiary sketch - I think some details are just not as clearly drawn in as others.

And - Why would a dart have the seam allowance on the outside any more than a seam would?... Perhaps it's an old dress and the stitches are giving so the seam is coming undone or something? I dunno.

I still can't see anythign that indicates (to me) that they're darts.

[misscrabtree.livejournal.com]

I talked with one of my two Art History Professors today about the Apollonia by Durer. She is actually a 19th century expert but her comments were. "We know it is St Apollonia because of documentation. Once the painting was completed her attributes would have been added. As for the costume, it is unlike anything I have ever seen for this date. The costume is something I would see in a 17th c. painting. Its interesting because the figure is sort of blocked, the head and shoulders and the dress are somewhat strange. The twisting in the arm fold area is quite interesting but I cant define the reason for this. You might want to refer to Erwin Panofsky two volume set on Albrecht Durer."

So, there is Professor ******'s Opinion. I will speak with my Northern Ren. Prof. this evening. I have a feeling she will know more. But do check Panofsky's book, his essays really helped me last semester.

Later,
Elizabeth

[misscrabtree.livejournal.com]

Part two - My Renaissance Professor looked at the printout and told me she can not really comment without seeing the actual piece. However, but she did venture to say, the dress she is wearing is period and that the "de cote" or neck line is what makes the piece disturbing. She suspects the twirling of the garment is due to a bodice, but the neck line is certainly period.

I hope this helps you in some way...let me know what you find in Panofsky. I'd be interested to know.

Elizabeth

Re: Darts? Where?

[misscrabtree.livejournal.com]

You said; "You seem to be referring to the vertical lines under the bust - what makes you think they're darts?"

After showing this printout to my Northern Renaissance Professor, she gave me a long lecture about hazards of using the internet to view paintings. She told me it is entirely unreliable and that one needs the actual piece in front of them to study. So I guess your right about what one sees on the screen is not necessarily what is actually there.

Re: Darts? Where?

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for asking your professors all these questions and following up on it with them.

Hmm... I can just see it now.

"Honey, I need to go to Europe this weekend to go look at this drawing to answer a perplexing question I have on construction. "

OK, that's one to put on the look up in the book or in real life museum someday. ;)

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

That helps plenty! ;) Thanks so much! I will read up on it in Panofsky and get back to this in a couple of weeks.

Re: Darts? Where?

[guyelfkin.livejournal.com]

She's right. Though you can get some fairly good repro's on the web.

The real problem is that, even with the clearest possible view (like looking at the original in the museum) we'd still be working on guesswork/supposition to a degree - and each person will form their own view of what it is they are seeing... and who's to say which of us is actually right?

And that sounds far too dry and serious so I'll shut up now.

Oh for the money and time

[guyelfkin.livejournal.com]

To drop everything and pop over for a quick look at something in a museum...