Chains

[mmcnealy]

Inquiring minds want to know about SCA regulations on chains, specifically gold chains...

As I am sure you can probably figure out if you look at any German portrait in the 16th century, the ladies are all wearing chains or heavy gold jewelry. Of course I want a necklace, what woman doesn't want pretty sparkly things?

So, to keep me out of trouble with the you know whos.. What is allowed when it comes to chains? Is it just unbroken chains that aren't allowed or is it anything gold and link like around the neck?

-Sign me "Hapless and Confused in CA"

Comments

[aeddie.livejournal.com]

I believe what is reserved is "un-adorned" chains so if there is a medallion or some such hanging from it, you're fine.

Thanks

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

Thanks Aeddie. See you a week from today!

[moizissimo.livejournal.com]

Aren't knights supposed to wear silver chains??

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

Nope, they wear gold. At least that's the color of the chains that I've seen.

Chains

[kiarapanther.livejournal.com]

One lady down in Caid when I lived there did German Renn. She used heavy gold metallic trim and looped them to look exactly like a necklace I've seen on one of the portraits.
Here is one http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/cranach1/p-crana1-9.htm (http://cgfa.sunsite.dk/cranach1/p-crana1-9.htm)
It looked really good and cheaper besides.

As for what is allowable in the SCA, it depends on the Kingdom. From what I understand its still just a tradition in An Tir that has the weight of a sumptuary law.

Here is a good article about such Sumptuary Laws in the SCA (http://www.sca-garb.freeservers.com/articles/sumptuary.htm)

The West has no sumptuary laws. The order of the Chivalry only has a circular chain registered (and that is for heraldic purposes, not the wearing of a gold chain.

Simply, there is nothing saying you can not wear unadorned gold chains. But people will get uppity if you wear them because "traditionally" they are reserved for the Chivalry. But there is no law in any kingdom you are near.

--Kiara

Re: Chains

[sarahbellem.livejournal.com]

The West doesn't have "official" sumptuary laws, but believe me, they are there. I can rattle off several just off the top of my head:

- The seven colored "rainbow" is restricted to court-appointed bards, in any form.
- Spurs are for Knights only
- Red belts for Squires, Green for non-knighted Peers (IIRC), Yellow for something else... Can't remember.
- 1" wide circlets for AoA's, single peaked circlets for Barons/Baronesses, pearls for Dukes/Duchesses
- White baldrics for Knights only
- Open linked chains for Knights only
- Blue feathers in one's cap denote your affiliation with the Clan of the Blue Feather (which is technically an inter-kingdom LGB organization but not many people outside of the West know the significance of it. Which can lead to some weird moments, believe me...)

The list goes on... It's been so long that I've forgotten a lot of the basic ones, but these are the more obvioius ones.

Re: Chains

[kiarapanther.livejournal.com]

Yes, but those are the "traditions" I mentioned. People will get uppity about it, but they are not "laws". Its all a matter of how you want to deal with it. Its quite likely you could get ostracized for going against one of the sumptuary traditions, and you will definately have lots of people telling you that you can't wear such and such because "traditionally" its reserved. But they can't make you stop wearing it if you want to be stubborn about it.

Of course, the king could get stubborn and ban you from court, or get really nasty and think of a legitamate reason to ban you from crown attended events. But other than people being nasty to you, they can't make you stop doing it.

Until it is a law, you have a legal right to wear whatever you want. Its all a matter of how much you want to put up with in order to be historically accurate in the face of SCA traditions.

--Kiara

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

[sarahbellem.livejournal.com]

Until it is a law, you have a legal right to wear whatever you want. Its all a matter of how much you want to put up with in order to be historically accurate in the face of SCA traditions.

::deep breath::

Okay, this is a major pet peeve of mine. Because it's not written, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And it doesn't mean that if you chose to ignore these "traditions" (a rose by any other name...) people are going to accept your behavior. Sure, you could wear a white belt, a four pointed crown and call yourself Sir Whatever, just because feel like it, but people (not just the king) will not take kindly to it. You will find yourself ostrasized and mocked and penalized in a myriad of social ways for your antisocial behavior. I haven't met anyone who is beligerant enough to persist with that kind of behavior and still maintain a presence in the SCA, historical accuracy or not.

The "traditions" B.S. is just that: Complete B.S. I think much of it has to do with wanting to put on a happy, carefree face to the public that says "WE ACCEPT YOU AS YOU ARE!!!" but we all know that in practice, this is far from the case. These are actual rules that people actually follow and have been outlined for a reason, but calling them "traditions" doesn't change the fact that they're still active rules.

Perhaps "sumptuary laws" wasn't the right term to use. But rules is rules, as they say.

Re: If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

[kiarapanther.livejournal.com]

I did mention that you WOULD most likely get ostrasized. But here in An Tir we are starting to challenge those traditions. Some people grumble but less and less so. Maybe in the West the traditions are more rule-like than here in An Tir.

But I was addressing the whole question. There is nothing written that says you can not wear a chain. However, because it is an established tradition, people will get upset at you if you do.

I was simply stating at the end that it was a personal choice as to whether all the hallobalu was worth it to be period. I have known people that have gone against the traditions. People get on their case all the time, but they haven't been asked to leave an event yet. But I'm sure its not very fun to have every other person who sees you take you aside and tell you why you can't wear such and such.

Re: Chains

[alienor.livejournal.com]

I'd have to agree with kiarapanther (sorry sarahbellem!). Law isn't law unless it's written. People can act like uppity snots if they want to, but following tradition AND law doesn't keep them from being nasty to you if they want to! They'll just find something else.

Ultimately, it comes up to the individual. For mmcnealy's specific case, I'd do it. If anyone said anything, I'd tell them that it's appropriate to my persona (which is SUPPPOSED to be our goal!). (and I'd make sure that the chains didn't have any meaning in that time period, or if they did it was a meaning that I could claim; similar to people who wear crusader's surcoats should be following the rules of those orders!)


LEGALLY (across the SCA), any unadorned chain (open or closed link) is reserved for knights . . . in combination with either the white belt or spurs. The rule (at least, last time I looked) is two out of three.

Tradition (in Atlantia, which I know doesn't apply to you) is one by itself (except spurs if your equestrian, they got an exception to tradition by being plucky about it, it seems!). I've broken that tradition before, since syrrichard follows the SCA method of silver to squires, but instead (since a chain symbolizes fealty) gives it to those who swear fealty - fighters or not. So I got one.

I have been questioned once. I told him that it was a gift from my knight and who was I to turn down such a gift? The questioner (a knight!) shrugged and changed the subject.

Re: Chains

[noxcat.livejournal.com]

- The seven colored "rainbow" is restricted to court-appointed bards, in any form.

That one is not enforcable, considering the Grant Level Award for A&S in Austin is noted by a rainbow ribbon. It's called the Iris of Merit. It's only one step below a Laurel. I wouldn't want to try and tell an Ansteooran Laurel they can't wear A&S award insignia!

Green for non-knighted Peers (IIRC)

Nope. Green belts are for Apprentices. I have one. :)

Re: Chains

[noxcat.livejournal.com]

the Grant Level Award for A&S in Austin

errrr...the Grant level award for A&S in Ansteorra. heh...I blame the typo on the incoming storm... yeah...distracted me. yeah.

Re: Chains

[sarahbellem.livejournal.com]

It only applies to the West Kingdom, so of course it's not applicable to other Kingdoms. But that was part of Marion's original question... What is and isn't acceptible here in the West.

Re: Chains

[noxcat.livejournal.com]

But if someone who was awarded the Iris of Merit were to wear one to a West Kingdom event, they couldn't be told (or pressured) to take it off. It is the recognized regalia of a recognized award that carries rank in the OP, and as such cannot be disallowed by a simple tradition.

Re: Chains

[sarahbellem.livejournal.com]

Now, the mitigating factor in all of this is that a rainbow ribbon with a Big Important Medalion hanging off of it would probably tip most people off to the fact that the wearer holds some kind of rank. If someone were to run up to that person and demand they not wear the rainbow ribbon unless they're a court bard, they'd have to be A) Rude and B) Stupid. I've met both in the SCA, but usually a little bit of explaining about the reason one is wearing such and such a thing clears the air. If a recipient of the Iris of Merit attends an event in the West and wishes to display their rainbow ribbon, *if* someone is shallow enough to confront them about it, a brief explanation of what the ribbon means and why they're wearing it will end the conversation right then and there, 9.9 times out of 10.

It wasn't my intention to insinuate that when a visitor comes to the West, they have to leave all their customs at the door.

[sarahbellem.livejournal.com]

Chains are tough in the West. The large, open-link ones that are typically "German" are restricted to Knights (and possibly other Peers, but don't quote me on that). At least that's how I remember it. No specificity with the metal, just large linked chains.

On a slightly related note, have you ever played around on the West Kingdom History Website (http://history.westkingdom.org/)? It's got an extensive pictoral archive of people and events and it might be helpful for figuring out A) who is a peer (if you know their name, there's an alphabetical listing under the "Who's Who" section, and also a listing of who has won what award and when) and B) pictures might be able to help answer the chain question.

I don't think all chains are restricted, but something just sticks out in my mind about the large open-link type...

And speaking of the West Kingdom History Website...

[sarahbellem.livejournal.com]

Hehehehe.
Me, 18 years old, during my stint as the Bard of Cynagua (http://history.westkingdom.org/Year31/Photos/MCW15.htm).

That photo always cracks me up. Good times. ;)

Thanks!

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

Right, that's the problem with chains, obviously the person who thought up the regalia for Knights wasn't a jewelry loving woman!

Thanks for the insight and I'll post what I find out from the locals later.

[ornerie.livejournal.com]

Marion, I recommend talking to Trish/Cyneswith. She will have a good idea how to balance authenticity with the practicing rules and social mores of the area you're living in.

and for the record, a number of us peers will wear things that in theory are covered under sumptuary just to make a point ;).

spurs, red belts, etc especially! I personally own and wear a "collar of state" that consists of roses and suns which flew in the face of the sumptuary laws a certain king tried ot pass a few years back.

and lets not talk about the ermine restrictions he wanted to put in there...sheesh!

the worst thing that happens is that people confuse you with a rank you dont have. that's something we'd all like to avoid but the world wont end.

in my experience, the only people who get their knickers in a twist are not the people who are entitled to the rank, but enthusiastic well meaning people (agh!) who try to explain CAREFULLY AND LOUDLY how all those people who arent upset WILL be upset :).

but again, talk to Cyneswith, or your local baroness. Godytha here in AnTir wears one of those large german chains (she made it out of portrait wire. hubba hubba!) and I dont think anyone has ever confused her with a knight.

now, if you ran around in a lamp chain from the hardware store, or one of those chain mail patterned chains out of merlins gold, THAT might be more of an issue ;)....

its all about perspective, or so I see it. of course, the "regalia" that theSCA says I'm entitled to I never wear because its not period anyway, so you may not what to take what I say as valid ;)

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

:) Ok, I'll check with the local sources and see what they say on the issue.

LOL, lamp chains, heehee.

It really would be much simplier to have everything be consistant across the entire organization, but then we wouldn't be human so never mind.

[ornerie.livejournal.com]

besides, if it was standard I wouldnt get to creep up on officious people and freak 'em out ;)

(for the record I never do this to people who arent being general asses about their awards and how important they are and blah blah blah.)

I suppose even officious asses are period, though? ;)

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

*sigh*
I suppose even officious asses are period, though? ;)

Unfortunatly I think they are.