Rocks with Cloaks

[mmcnealy]

The back story to this post: jurgenzuvols is the Baron-elect of Ponte Alto (he's also a former Westie), and wants to have really nice clothes for stepping up, a Rock with a Cloak worn over the top, cloak being based on the Moritz von Sachsen cloak.
cathgrace said in comments to an earlier post that she didn't think that this was done since in her understanding the Rock and the Cloak were both outer garments like a coat, and one wouldn't have been worn over the top of the other.


Here is a brief (and I do mean brief, as in, took less than 30 mins), look into the artwork to see if Rocks are depicted as being covered with Cloaks or Schaube and treated as inner garements, not just outer garments. I can certainly think of lots of pictures of the Rock being treated as an outer garment, like a tunic would be, and not just as an extra layer for warmth. Textiler Hausrat mentions that the wams and hose took the place of the armour when it was worn in civilian settings, and that the lower classes appear to have worn it by itself. (1.1.5 Leibrock - Paltrock - Wappenrock)

From the Augsburg Murals

Black Rock with a yellow rectangular shawl

Auszug der Ratsherren aus dem Augsburger Rathaus A group of older men in Schauben. Unable to tell what they are wearing underneath the Schaube, but the neckline looks very similar to a Rock, and the Schuabe are held out like there is a lot of fabric underneath.

A very nice red rock

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Here's a nice picture of a yellow and black cloak, very similar to the Moritz von Sachsen cloak

Another yellow cloak picture This time showing the wams and hosen that the fashionable young man is wearing underneath them.

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The problem with finding Rock with Schaube or Cloaks over the top of them is that often times the Schaube or cloak is completely closed over the top. You can see the cone shaped spread that the rock would give, but now conclusive evidence.

So I really don't think that one can say it wasn't done, but I don't yet have conclusive evidence that it was. More later

ETA and ETA again, link fixed
Holbein's The Ambassador's is the kind of look I'm looking for.

Comments

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

The link to the Holbein French Ambassadors is kaput unfortunately. Here's:

http://www.zhengjian.org/news_images/2004-6-27-pic-2.jpg

However, with a little poking, Jurgen wants his outfit in black, yes? So he's really looking for this guy's outfit here:

http://www.geocities.com/hansiiholbein/CharlesSolier.html

might try this for better detail despite the annoying popup:

http://www.artchive.com/artchive/H/holbein/holbein_solier.jpg.html

There used to be a better reproduction of that portrait on Tudor-portraits.com, but the site's been taken down, alas.

Charles de Solier was the French Ambassador who took up the post in England after the two young gentlemen above went home in 1537. This is the sort of clothing that The Tudor Tailor goes into detail on how to make, though they of course go into the English style rather than the German. I suspect that the trim style on the original Rock above is, of course, German though the underlying garment itself is fairly universal across Europe.

[ciorstan.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I've got my terms wrong. I'm thinking 'Cloak' and writing 'Rock' above.

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link-issue notice, I fixed it.

There actually is quite a bit of difference between the English and the German styles for this garment, the pleated rock. Which reminds me, need to get my copy of TT back from the lady I lent it to...

[carbonphoenix.livejournal.com]

I was reading a friend's friend page, and I was just wondering - how much have the definitions changed?
Der Rock is skirt in modern German so when I read some of the costuming terms I'm like "whoa wait, what?"

[dameroseline.livejournal.com]

Could it be that the "rock" is like the modern suit jacket? It can be sometimes worn on its own as an outer garment but if the weather is cold, you wear a coat, too. Seems to me they were less concerned with what was considered an "outerwear" garment than with staying warm.

Just my two cents.....

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

This is a great analogy, and I think that is how it was. Guys today wear suits in the office, and outdoors when its warm enough. But when its cold, they put on overcoats to keep warm.

Layers are a good thing!

Since I've worn a Blue Rock over the last...

[jurgenzuvols.livejournal.com]

Since I've worn a rock at several events over two and a half years, I really do agree with this perspective, but with a little additional experience...

My blue rock actually does a great job of keeping me cool and warm as needed. I've fenced in it, danced in it, worked courts, and just relaxed in it. It's better than a conventional suit jacket, as I am more constrained by a suit jacket (and usually whip my suit jacket off as soon as I hit my work desk). This really has to do with shoulder constraint, which my Wappenrock doesn't do.

I think a lot of the rocks depicted are worn by men who are expected to be active (Fighters, Explorers, or "Ambassadors"). This isn't a fact, it's an opinion...

-Jurgen

Re: Since I've worn a Blue Rock over the last...

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

I think everyone then was active, even the desk sort of jobs that people had then required more physical activity than people do today.

The shoulder constraint in a suit jacket is because its not tailored for active wear, but to look nice with your arms at your sides. For an active garment, there needs to be more room between the shoulder blades and a *much* flatter sleeve cap, and set closer into the body, so that the arm can move without restriction.