Name of a weaving technique?

[mmcnealy]

 At 0:42 to 1:15 in this video the lady demonstrates a type of weaving, but what type is it?



I'm curious if its the type of weaving being used on the band looms so commonly seen in early modern pattern books?
Such as this one from Google Books Patrons de broderie et de lingerie du XVIe siècle By Hippolyte Cocheris, Bibliothèque Mazarine
Two looms, both not tablet looms but rigid heddle.
Not in the US? Use  this link to save the PDF

Edited to change source of images, and add a picture of the kind of band I think these patterns are for.


Looms

From Looms, Patterns & Examples

Sample Patterns

From Looms, Patterns & Examples

Example of dresss with a patterned woven band

From Dekolette dress

Comments

[femkederoas.livejournal.com]

It looks like a form of tapestry weaving. Hard to tell as the video isn't that great. Though it's somewhat unusual to leave THAT much warp open.

The patterns you posted would also be useful for lacis.

[cathgrace.livejournal.com]

Paul says that the lady calls it an indigenous Chilean weaving although she uses words he is not familiar with either because they are Chilean Spanish or because he was not familiar with weaving terminology in Spanish.

The weaving is definitely not tapestry woven as this weaving is warp faced instead of weft faced, this looks almost more like a stick instead of card controlled card weaving (if that makes any sense.)

South American textiles techniques can translate to similar techniques as European ones (especially the non ancient ones since the Europeans potentially taught it to them) but I would not start there for sure since the fineness of the fabric and the use is very different.

[cathgrace.livejournal.com]

and those patterns aren't "weaving" as far as I can tell, they are a type of worked net that I don't remember the name of but I have seen extant pieces and modern reproductions.

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

Thanks for having Paul listen to the video and translate a bit of it.

The charted patterns could be used for anything from Lacis, to embroidery, knitting or weaving. They aren't confined to one specific discipline of ornamental work.

[cathgrace.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity (since I can't read the writing in the book) what in the documentation says it is for knitting or weaving? Knitting patterns have a very specific look since the length is shorter then the width in a stitch, and weaving has a draw pattern that needs to indicate type of weave, threading, etc. I totally see the embroidery aspect, since I have seen extant pieces with similar work, but the weaving thing doesn't make as much sense to me although I am admittedly only a beginner/intermediate weaver.

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

I think you're confusing the modern notation of the weaving charts you're used to with the base pattern. The patterns in period pattern/sample books like the one above were meant to inspire and be used in a variety of artistic disciplines, not just one specific art form.
Hopefully this article will explain how to take a charted pattern and convert it to the modern weaving diagram that you're used to.

The differing width and length of the chart grids is a modern invention for helping the artist envision the way the work will look before its finished. Depending on your gauge, you'd use different shaped ones for knitting, weaving, crochet, embroidery, etc.

[cathgrace.livejournal.com]

I do know they had these books as sort of fashion plate-esk inspiration, but the pictures are fairly distinct; the ones with the grid work best as net lace, and there are period examples of this lace. The ones that are just line drawings lend themselves best to metal thread work and embroidered borders, and there are period examples of this type of embroidery and metal thread work. (I did not go through the whole book, so I am just going off of the examples you posted and a couple of others I flipped through) I know the images can transfer from one concept to the next, but unless it's specifically mentioned I tend to prefer to not apply work from one art to another without direct documentation linking the two together.

I think it's not always possible to cross mediums, there is not always a reasonable transition from one line to the next in lace if your thread doesn't end up in the right spot and lace is not as forgiving because it is double sided. Bobbin lace prickings are just what they are, and in the same vein unless there is specific documentation saying that the gridded fabric is for something other then lace - it's pretty fair to assume it is what it is (and even then never assume it is what it is unless there are multiple things to support it.)

I understand that modern draw patterns are a totally different animal then historic work, since I have made my own fabric off of looking at historic fabric; but the thing is, most of those pictures couldn't work for the rigid heddle weaving you were showing in the other pictures (or simple plain or twill weaving in general) because you would end up with a sleazy weave, or if you did an overshot you would have too many floats and it would snag easily. Brocading fabric is enough of a process that there are a lot of harnesses and it really is a massive undertaking that would need to be extensively charted by what thread goes through what heddle in what harness, so it would be impractical to include in a multi-discipline pattern book with the expectation of anyone being able to practically apply it.

I know your process is a little different from mine, (since I don't research for publishing purposes.) I research out of interest usually directed at a specific project or class, so for myself I would definitely use the pictures to develop an eye for what patterns are period feeling, but in my comfort level for what I would be willing to teach others as fact, I only acknowledge those things that are written by a period source or verifiable through an extant piece as true. (hence asking if you knew what the book said since I would love to know!)

I have spent a lot of time looking at extant knitting, and the same few patterns are repeated over and over again, with the exact same number stitches in each of those patterns - that can't be just by chance, and it is improbable that all the pieces that still exist were knitted by the same person or workshop. There had to have been counted charts, and since the pictures were not distorted, they had to have taken into account how knitting works length vs width. The patterns that one sees over and over again look nothing like any of the pictures I saw in this book, so unless specifically stated, it's safer to assume it's not for knitting until proven otherwise.

I have definitely learned through working with people who know a lot more then me about historic embroidery, etc, that it is far better to limit the scope of what you broadcast to what you know and can prove rather then starting with a wider base and narrowing. (this is not to say I don't look far and wide for research stuff, I just don't teach or assume where I can influence others - the main thing that has stuck with me is it is far better for me to say I don't know and be open to learning rather then think I have the answer and be very wrong!) If you do ever get a translation of this saying it's for knitting and weaving I would love to hear about it!

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

I know your process is a little different from mine, (since I don't research for publishing purposes.) I research out of interest usually directed at a specific project

In this particular instance it IS for personal use, not publishing, and for a particular project (a woven narrow band). I'm not planning to publish it except on my LJ and site to share as work I've done or avenues I've pursued as an artist. I do enough actual publishing of articles on Victorian and Edwardian clothing for pay that I like to have fun projects on the side that don't have deadlines.

While yes, I agree with you that some patterns are better suited to certain disciplines than others, (bobbin lace and reticella patterns for example) I don't agree that one couldn't take a charted pattern and use it for weaving a narrow patterned band like one sees at the top of the dekollete gowns on the brusttuch and on the edges of steuchlein, especially if there are examples of similar types of patterns in paintings.

Yes, there might be problems with floats, but looking at extant period textiles they had period methods of dealing with that and still keeping the patterns distinctly visible.

It's all an experiment Catherine, to learn what works, what doesn't work and how it might have been done.

BTW, the text at the beginning is in French and from 1872 and describes the source of the plates and the history of this type of book. Its sort of interesting, but not very.

[pearl]

Darn it, the links to googlebooks don't appear to work outside of the US. Foreigners will need an IP proxy to see them.

Is the video of pick-up weaving? [PDF]

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

I just edited the entry to have the pictures pull from Picassa, so they should work now.

I've also added a download link for the book as well.

Pickup weaving does look like a distinct possibility. Here are a couple of other techniques that I want to investigate more.
Warp float weaving video

Supplementary weft patterning
One weft double weave

[pearl]

Wow, thank-you.

weaving videos

[backstrapgal.livejournal.com]

Hi, I was getting some hits on my blog from this site so I came over to check it out. Just thought I would make myself known if you had any questions about the videos or backstrap weaving, pick up etc... I am also the weaver from Bolivia, friend of alyclepal mentioned here by dona violante.

Re: weaving videos

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

Hi! Thanks so much for dropping by. :) I will have questions, just not really sure what they are right now, I need to do some more research and figure a few things out.

[dona-violante.livejournal.com]

Try asking Virag - alyclepal on LJ. She knows all sorts of crazy weaving stuff, and she's friends with a weaver from Bolivia so it's possibly a similar technique.

[mmcnealy.livejournal.com]

Awesome, thanks!

[rwday.livejournal.com]

Not tapestry - it looks like the weaver is using pick up techniques to extend the capabilities of her tabby loom. You could certainly do this on a band loom (I've done it on an inkle), though I don't know if this is how the bands you're referring to were actually created.